Q & A with Debajit Sarangi(DS) of Living Farms, BBSR

DS: When talking about GM we always mean Genetic Modification and nothing else. Your statements are designed to complicate things and try to push forward the agenda of GM.

Subas Mohapatra(SM): you are absolutely correct. GM stands for genetic modification. What most non-scientists and even many scientists do not realize that breeding also brings about genetic modification and therefore hybrid crops are GM crops. If you want to call "legs" as "head" and then claim that people are walking on head, that is your prerogative, but do not expect me to agree with that.

You are also right when you say I am pushing the agenda of GM. What else you expect from a scientist? I am in support of GM as I am in support of human knowledge and advancement in other areas. Only close-minded people and fear-mongers are blindly opposing GM crops.

DS: This is just like the USA opining that GM food is the "substantial equivalent" of natural food. You say that Govts will not allow things that are perceived to be dangerous.

SM: You are distorting what I have said. Please read my postings again. I said government will not allow things that are proved to be dangerous. Perception has nothing to do with proofs.

DS: Then how can you explain the growth in the areas of tobacco, pesticides, vaccines, nuclear science and such other things? Govts today are only interested about the health of the party funds and little else as the majority of the members here are acutely aware.

SM: Government in the USA approves only those vaccines that are safe. I do not know what happens in other countries. Government is allowing tobacco just as it is allowing alcohol. Because these are habit forming substances they are highly regulated in the USA. Government can not ban any thing that is dangerous because in that case it has to ban potato and rice for they are harmful for diabetics. However, government is playing a strong role in bringing moderation for the use of these substances. For example in most states in the USA smoking and drinking are prohibited in public places. I know that for a fact because I worked on tobacco for 30 years.

DS: You must also be aware that many countries have banned the entry of GM

SM: Every country bans entry of any agricultural product, GM or not. But most countries my knowledge have not only not banned research on GM but are funding internal development of these crops and medicines. No farmer in USA has yet spurned GM crops. Not only that farmer's associations are funding development of GM crops. I can not comment on ignorant farmers of other countries. May be people like you are responsible for their ignorance.

DS: and in more countries farmers and consumers are up in arms against this technology which is fraught with many assumptions and loopholes. GM is an attempt to take charge over life forms and commercialise life, an idea which every self thinking individual can only loathe and abhor. GM or GE whatever you call it is not a science. It is a technology which the greedy are employing to satiate their desire to control the world and its inhabitants.

SM: The above are your opinions, to which you are entitled, I have no comments on them.

DS: In this forum we are concerned about what is going on in the name of scientific development and the consequent effect on the health of the world. We have opened the windows of our homes and our laboratories are not confined to four walls. We invite you to rethink your opinion on the subject and instead of rushing forward madly, stop and think about the consequences first.

SM: That is why I am so vigorously participating in this forum. I know I may not be able to remove your ignorance. But you also know that I am not allowing any forum of which I am a part to engage in fear-mongering.

DS: Please spare us your ideas and allow us to continue in our efforts to build a humane world.

SM: I am also involved in developing a human world and I am not going to allow you to destroy it through rumors and fear-mongering. I will be in Orissa between Oct-Nov. You are invited to come to my work shop free of cost (I charge others Rs. 1000) along with your scientists to talk to the same people who will attend my workshop on "Inegrated Farming System, Controlled Environment Agriculture and Eco-Farming"

Since you are so intent to develop human society through ignorance and fear-mongering, I will be happy not to respond to your postings from now on, if that is what you want. BY THE WAY, DID YOUR SCIENTIST FRIEND DECIDED NOT TO DEBATE WITH ME ONE-ON-ONE?

Debajit Sarangi
Living Farms Plot No.1181 / 2146, Ratnakarbag-2,
Tankapani Road,
Bhubaneswar - 751018,
Orissa.
Ph-->0674-2430176
Mob -->9938582616

Q and A on GM and GE food with Sadananda Sahoo(SS)

Sadananda Sahoo (SS) <sahoocsid@yahoo.comwrote:

Sadananda Sahoo(SS): These days Delhi market is flooded with GM tomatoes and other variety of vegetables. I don't have much knowledge on the harmful effects of GM crops. But I want to know from Subhas Mahapatra about few things.

Subhas Mohapatra(SM): To the best of my knowledge GE-Tomato has not yet been created although GM-tomato is plentiful every where

SS: . Why GM crops are not tasty as our natural crops? It is no way closer to the natural vegetables. Our natural vegetables don't have the beauty than the GM crops have. GM vegetables look so attractive!!! Natural vegetables look ugly before them.

SM: Taste has nothing to do with GM or GE. It is the result of marketing strategy. People now a days are harvesting green tomatoes and ripening them through ethylene. This allows more quantities of tomato hit the market as compared to vine-ripe tomatoes. If you are eating for taste that indeed is a disappointment. But if you are eating for food value, the food value of these tomatoes is no different from vine ripe tomatoes.

SS: Do we need to go for GM crops? (People say this will help in producing more, then what? The plenty of production does not reduce the poverty and exploitation of the poor).

SM: We are already using GM crops. All hybrids are GM crops. Poverty has nothing do with food production. Poverty has more to do with food distribution/marketing. Poor people as such do not have access to market because of numerous factors, distance being the single most hurdle. NGOs can help poor people much in this regard.

SS: . Why do we need to brain wash the poor farmers to relearn the technology of using GM crops and forgetting their own traditional knowledge- which is more dependable and durable?

SM: This is a misconception. People need to use better germ plasm for better profitability. If they wish to remain poor of course they can continue to use old seeds. Every one now a days is using hybrid seeds. India became self-sufficient in food only through the use of GM seeds, not traditional seeds.

SS: . I think the world has been producing enough and the challenge is not further producing enough. The challenge is at the attitudinal level. People with new knowledge and technology further wish to take advantage and exploit further who are outside this knowledge system. Knowledge is good when it is transparent and respect the environment, people and bring harmony in society.

SM: This is not a question. It is an opinion. You are entitled to your opinion as I am to mine.

SS:. Today we have many advocates for any company products and knowledge and very few volunteers to advocate for the natural way of living. The very nature of GM crop is the greedy nature of companies to make enough profits. I think the technology in the hands of Bhasmasura- a wrong hand that will spoil the world. They have no vision for tomorrow.

SM: Again, this is not a question. It is an opinion, which you are entitled to. But I have different views on this.

SS: . Just compare if a human being will be altered chemically? If it happens in massive scale what will happen? We may not think of such a horror dream!

SM: Before a single human being is altered, several hundreds will have been killed by a knife. May be we should ban making and use of knives. I do not know the laws in your country. But in this country (USA) it is illegal to do experiments on human beings. Actually horrors are nightmares, not dreams.

SS: But we can think to do all kinds of alteration with our environment as we think we (human) have every right to exercise our will around us. Surprisingly human being is not thinking of the consequences which may come after 10 to 20 years in future. They have been most selfish in this era.

SM: As far as I know, no one purposely is altering the environment. Unfortunately, environment alteration has become a result of our modern life style. Human beings in general can not do much, but you as an individual can do much by deciding to walk or use bi-cycle rather than use automobiles. or trains or planes.

SS: People who built the civilization always think of holistic perspective. Civilization needs to take into account the voices of poet, artists, philosopher, saints.

SM: If we look back these people have built the civilization. We don't remember those businessmen of yesteryears! I do not give credit to any one for building civilization. To me civilization is a result of human evolution at individual and societal level.

SS: Development in any field should be linked to the interrelated knowledge system- cultural, spiritual, economic and all. "Our specialised knowledge will help us only to think like a blind men judging an elephant".

SM: I do not have much wisdom to comment on this.

--- subhas mohapatra(SM) <iaff10@yahoo.comwrote:

POST Script:
Because I will be going out of town for couple of weeks it may not be possible to participate in the ongoing discussion on GM/GE crops. I am therefore leaving the following thoughts for readers on this subject. Will offer needed clarification upon my return. What we say gnetically modified or genetically engineered is actually a process of chemical modification. We isolate the chemical molecule DNA, break it down to pieces id polymers (or chemical compounds) before we insert into the cell. Thus we are chemically modifying the DNA of the cell. The piece of chemical we introduce is rarely a complete gene. We do not insert the complete gene because the regulatory elements are already inside the cell. All we need is to insert new chemical fragments to function as templates for new proteins. Some times we find that needed genes are already present but are not expressing because of the inefficiency/absence of the regulatory mechanisms. In that case, we introduce the needed regulatory chemical molecules. I have simplified the statement because the actual process is much more detailed than what I have said here. Thus, we can technically replace the terms "GM" and "GE" with "CM" and "CE" (i.e. chemically altered or chemically engineered) respectively.

We all know that even though we use the land to produce rice and cereal crops, the tools and sequence of operations are often quite different. Like wise, although we use different chemicals, the concept of chemical alteration of plants is akin to water purification. We all know that rivers and streams carry industrial pollutions and animal urine and stools situated upstream. We pass these "dirty water" through water treatment plants to modify them chemically to bring to a relatively pure (not absolutely poor) state for city water supply. This chemical modification is often more harmful to human beings than the chemically modified plants have ever been. Even with close monitoring of pollutions and microorganism some times water treatment plants fail or some times the plumbing systems introduce new organisms or pollutants make the water unsafe. Thus in all city water supplies there is a "tolerable" level of pollutants and pathogens. The "tolerable" level is there because dirty water can not be made "absolutely pure". The readers need to recognize that every day we drink city water we are voluntarily subjecting ourselves to potential true hazards. This will never happened in chemically altered crops because they do not acquire chemicals on the way to the "market" and before they are released to the market they are thoroughly tested with respect to their danger and efficacy. So folks, start using the term "CM" and "CE" crops and put your mind at rest from the perceived dangers of "GM" and "GE" crops. Happy Easter Break.

GE - Tomato Q & A

Questions:

These days Delhi market is flooded with GM tomatoes and other variety of vegetables. I don't have much knowledge on the harmful effects of GM crops. But I want to know from Subhas Mahapatra about few things.

1. Why GM crops are not tasty as our natural crops? It is no way closer to the natural vegetables. Our natural vegetables don't have the beauty than the GM crops have. GM vegetables look so attractive!!! Natural vegetables look ugly before them.

2. Do we need to go for GM crops? (People say this will help in producing more, then what...? The plenty of production does not reduce the poverty and exploitation of the poor).

3. Why do we need to brain wash the poor farmers to relearn the technology of using GM crops and forgetting their own traditional knowledge- which is more dependable and durable?

4. I think the world has been producing enough and the challenge is not further producing enough. The challenge is at the attitudinal level. People with new knowledge and technology further wish to take advantage and exploit further who are outside this knowledge system. Knowledge is good when it is trasparent and respect the environment, people and bring harmony in society.

5. Today we have many advocates for any company products and knowledge and very few volunters to advocate for the natural way of living. The very nature of GM crop is the greedy nature of companies to make enough profits. I think the technology in the hands of Bhasmasura- a wrong hand that will spoil the world. They have no vision for tomorrow.

6. Just compare if a human being will be altered chemically? If it happens in massive scale what will happen? We may not think of such a horror dream! But we can think to do all kinds of alteration with our envionment as we think we (human) have every right to excercise our will around us. Surprisingly human being is not thinking of the consequences which may come after 10 to 20 years in future. They have been most selfish in this era.

People who built the civilization always think of holistic perspective. Civilization needs to take into accont the voices of poet, arists, philosopher, saints. If we look back these people have built the civilization. We don't remember those businessmen of yesteryears! Development in any field should be linked to the interrelated knowledge system- cultural, spiritual, economic and all. "Our specialised knowledge will help us only to think like a blind men judging an elephant".

Dr. Sadananda Sahoo
Institute of Applied Manpower Research
(Panning Commission, Govt. of India)
Sector A-7, Institutional Area
Narela, Delhi- 110040, 09818602718 (M)
+091-011-27787214-18, Extn.-198(o)

Answer:

Because I will be going out of town for couple of weeks it may not be possible to participate in the ongoing discussion on GM/GE crops. I am therefore leaving the following thoughts for readers on this subject. Will offer needed clarification upon my return.

What we say gnetically modified or genetically engineered is actually a process of chemcial modification. We isolate the chemical molecule DNA, break it down to pieces id polymers (or chemical compounds) before we insert into the cell. Thus we are chemically modifying the DNA of the cell. The piece of chemical we introduce is rarely a complete gene. We do not insert the complete gene because the regulatory elements are already inside the cell. All we need is to insert new chemical fragments to function as templates for new proteins. Some times we find that needed genes are already present but are not expressing because of the inefficiency/ absence of the regulatory mechanisms. In that case, we introduce the needed regulatory chemical molecules. I have simplified the statement because the actual process is much more detailed than what I have said here. Thus, we can technically replace the terms "GM" and "GE" with "CM" and "CE" (i.e. chemically altered or chemically engineered) respectively.

We all know that even though we use the land to produce rice and cereal crops, the tools and sequence of operations are often quite different. Like wise, although we use different chemicals, the cocept of chemical alteration of plants is akin to water purification. We all know that rivers and streams carry industrial pollutions and animal urine and stools situated upstream. We pass these "dirty water" through water treatment plants to modify them chemically to bring to a relatively pure (not absolutely poor) state for city water supply. This chemical modification is often more harmful to human beings than the chemically modified plants have ever been. Even with close monitoring of pollutions and microorganism some times water treatment plants fail or some times the plumbing systems introduce new organisms or pollutants make the water unsafe. Thus in all city water supplies there is a "tolerable" level of pollutants and pathogens. The "tolerable" levl is there because dirty water can not be made "absolutely pure".

The readers need to recognize that every day we drink city water we are voluntarily subjecting ourselves to potential true hazards. This will never happend in chemically altered crops because they do not aquire chemcials on the way to the "market" and before they are released to the market they are thoroughly tested with respect to their danger and efficacy.

So folks, start using the term "CM" and "CE" crops and put your mind at rest from the perceived dangers of "GM" and "GE" crops.

Happy Easter Break

How MFIs exploit Poor tribals.. by Subas Mohapatra, Ph. D

Dear Readers

Up to this point I have been engaged in vigorous debates on the impact of micro finance on tribal people. Some among us are concerned about the high interest rates being charged to the tribal people in the name of micro finance. This is a genuine concern and should be addressed thoroughly. Perhaps the name of Micro Finance should be changed to "micro finance with mega interest". But being a believer of "free market economy" I am not concerned about any interest rate as long as the borrower gets the same margin of return from the free market as the lender is getting from the borrower. In this context I have given you bits and pieces of information in my numerous postings. Here I wish to summarize so you will get a real picture of what is happening in the field regardless of what Khirode Malick and others in the MFI are claiming.

1. Tribal people are being "pushed" from the same bank of the river into the currents of the river. All they are given is a "loan at the door step" as Khirode Malick has claimed. Then they are forced to pay the interest (I do not care how low or high) even if they have failed in the undertakings.

2. Although the loan is brought in the name of the group, the money is distributed to individuals according to the ongoing MF practice.

3. Because the money is brought in the name of the SHG, bank/lender records will only show the name of the SHG, not the names of the individual borrowers. However, the NGO records will show the individuals name because that is how they hunt the borrowers down to extract the interest.

4.You all know that many of our relatives (including some among your family members and friends) default loans (especially agricultural loans) routinely. But Khirode Malick has claimed 100% collection from hapless tribal women. This is misleading in two aspects: a) Actually the tribal people default the loan b) The 100% collection is actually interest collection. Just imagine how every one in a community will voluntarily give the interest due unless they are being coerced, manipulated, threatened and in some cases beaten up by fellow tribal people who are paid to do so. These all pass in the name of "community conflict" because one tribal person beats up the other. Because the most of the borrowers are women, they are not touched, but their spouses are attacked. Because many of the spouses are drunk most of the time, the assailant's excuse is "I was trying to straighten him up because for him his wife is unable to pay the loan money back". I have not yet heard the story of murder, but this an event waiting to happen if we do not do some thing.

5. As I have said in the above, illiterate tibial women are given any where between Rs.50000 to Rs.150000 as micro finance loan. They have no skill to invest and get a return from it. So they go ahead and use the loan money to improve their standard of living. This allows BISWA to show how peoples' lives are improving because of micro finance and the gullible visitor believes it. That is why Khirode Malick is constantly inviting people to visit their service area instead of answering questions openly.

6. As I have said above the "interest collector/ kabuli wala" shows up at the door at regular intervals to collect the interest and tells the borrower "you have nothing to lose or fear as long as you pay the interest". That is true because according to law MF loans must be given without any collateral.

7. Then comes the time to return the principal (because each loan has a stipulated terminal date). The borrower can not pay and defaults. Even if one borrower defaults the whole groups is considered to be at default. Thus, people within the same group coerce and assault so their fellow members will not default. They are abated by BISWA for this pressure tactics. Who actually does the coercion and assault? Those few in the group who succeed using the loan. They do this so the group will not default. Unfortunately in spite of all these many groups default.

8. According to the MF rules the SHG can not have more than 20 members of less than 13 or 15 (I forgot to write down). You will rarely find a group with 20 members even if BISWA has more than 100 SHGs. This is explained below.

9. As soon as the SGH defaults, the group can not get any more loan and is disbanded. But because the loan is not recorded against any individual, the same individuals are assigned to other SHGs and continue to get more MF loans and maintain their spurious higher standard life style.

10. Although the SHGs default, the lender does not lose the money because they have already expected this and incorporated the recovery in to the high interest rates. Thus, if there is no default, the lender makes even more money.

11. In addition to the above, there is another step in the exploitation. The bank sets the initial interest while giving the money to the NGO (individual tribes can not go to the bank for this loan, they can only go through the SHG and most SHGs are attached to an NGO, although, according to Justice Mohapatra, this is not a legal requirement. After the NGO gets the loan, then it sets a second tier interest which includes the bank interest. This is where BISWA gets rich. Because if it can avoid default for one group, it has income from the interest of the money loaned plus the margin that is included in the interest assuming that it will default.

12. I was told by more than one of my guides that in several instances NGOs (I do not know if BISWA does this) take the young women of the SHG and engage them in prostitution so the money they earn can be used to pay back the interest. In most cases, however, the interest is paid from their meager daily earnings daily labor. This is better document by the George foundation of the Wharton School of Business of U-Penn. That is probably why there is increasing number of HIV-AIDS incidents among tribal young women. This is what I have read in state news papers. I have no data.

13. As Susmita Mohapatra has indicated there is no post processing involvement of the MFIs except interest collection. Thus the borrowers have no advice for business entrepreneurship. When I challenged this to one NGO, its chief said "But Sir, only last week we had a Mushroom Expert who took from us Rs.10000 to offer training". When I asked then why are you failing? He said "we do not have money to pay him Rs.10000 each time, and no one is here to tell us what wrong we are doing". Please note, this came from the NGO, not the SHG. This reflects the consequences of non-involvement of the MFI in post processing phages.

WHAT IS THE SOLUTION? Very simple.

1. There is already rules in the book for defaulting SHGs. This is a good rule

2. There should also be a rule that once one SHG defaults, the respective NGO will not be allowed to form new SHGs.

3. There should be a rule once the SHG is formally formed, its number of members can not increase. This is how they form many SHGs with empty seats so they can absorb people from defaulting SHGs. Some times they exchange an old member for a defaulting member to keep the number same and form a new SHG with members who have not defaulted. This is easy to do because the primary lenders do not have any record on individual borrowers. They only have records on NGOs and their SHGs.

4. BISWA claims it has presence in all districts of Orissa and outside Orissa. Rule should be made that no NGO can operate outside its own district. This will cut down mushrooming of NGOs and wide spread exploitation by NGOs.

5. BISWA encourages through advertisements and letters external SHGs (including those of other NGOs) to transfer their money to its bank so it will arrange loan for them three times their deposits.

5. Each MFI loans should be required to also provide assistance in production, storage, processing and marketing of the products for which it is providing loan. This will open up jobs for graduates of different disciplines make assistance available for illiterate tribal women.

6. There should be a provision which will allow the SHG members to lodge complain with higher authorities than he/she/they are not getting the promised assistance from the MFI in a timely manner. This should prohibit the MFI from collecting interest as long as the borrowers problems are not solved. In other words, the MFI's financial growth should be linked to the financial growth of the borrower. ODT will address this by transferring the "front end load" through interest free loan to the "back end load" through profit sharing. I have found that this approach actually brings better results because the adversarial "prey (borrower)-predator (lender)" relationship is converted to "partnership" for common good.

7. I am sure there are other better solutions but probably it will occur to the readers better than me.